A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.
Tonight’s Host Miko Lee speaks with authors who have used their personal lives to tell their stories. They both talk and write about trauma, joy and resilience but in two very different ways. First up she chats with Chanel Miller. Many folx might know of Chanel’s best selling first book Know My Name which expands on the powerful victim impact letter she wrote to Brock Turner who brutally sexually assaulted her on the Stanford Campus. We talk about her latest work – two delightful books for young people.
Then Miko talks with Kazu Haga who weaves his spiritual practice and trauma healing with a deep lineage of nonviolent social change. In his books, Fierce Vulnerability and Healing Resistance he shares with us his personal journey and offers some insightful visions for our current tumultuous world.
Links to the Author’s work:
Fierce Vulnerability Kinship Lab,
Chanel Miller The Moon Without Stars
Purchase Chanel’s books at East Wind Books and Kazu’s books at Parallax Press
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
APEX Opening: Apex Express. Asian Pacific Expression. Community and cultural coverage. Music and calendar. New visions and voices. Coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.
Miko Lee: Good evening. Welcome to apex express. This is your host, Miko Lee. Join us as you hop along the apex express. Tonight I speak with authors who have used their personal lives to tell their stories. They both talk and write about trauma, joy, and resilience, but in two very different and distinct ways. First up, I chat with Chanel Miller. Many folks might know of Chanel’s bestselling first book Know My Name, which expands on the powerful victim impact letter she wrote to Brock Turner, who brutally sexually assaulted her on the Stanford campus. But tonight we talk about her latest work, two delightful books for young people. And then I talk with Kazu Haga, who weaves his spiritual practice and trauma healing with a deep lineage of nonviolent social change.
In his books Fierce vulnerability and Healing Resistance, he shares with us his personal journey and offers some insightful visions for our current tumultuous world. First off, listen to my conversation with Chanel Miller. Welcome, author Chanel Miller to Apex Express.
Chanel Miller: Thank you so much for having me. It’s a delight to be here with you.
Miko Lee: I’m really excited to talk to you, and I wanna start with my first question, which I ask all of my guests, which is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Chanel Miller: Oh, I have so many people. Today, you’re my people who continue to help guide me forward. I grew up in the Bay Area and I feel like honestly all of my books are attempts at saying thank you to the people who raised me, the English teachers in my public schools. For helping me stay aligned with myself and never letting me drift too far. And so even though I tell very different stories for different demographics, I think if you look at the root of everything that I write, it’s gratitude because they are the people who protected my voice in the first place.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much. So we’re talking about your third book. Your first book was amazing. Know my name, which is really powerful memoir about surviving sexual assault at Stanford, and this incredible public reclamation of your voice. And then you move from that very personal, internal, very adult work to your second book, which was so lovely and sweet. Magnolia Woo unfolds it all, which was an illustrated book set New York about a little girl and her friend who reunite people with their lost socks. From this all the way to this young person’s book and your latest book, the Moon Without Stars, your second, YA novel is based in middle school. So talk to me a little bit about this journey from personal memoir to elementary school to middle school books.
Chanel Miller: Yeah, so like you said, the first book was so internal and gutting to write. I knew I needed. Something that would help me breathe a little easier and get in touch with playfulness again. I wrote Magnolia Woo Unfolds it all. It’s perfect for kids ages seven to 12. My goal was just to enjoy the process of writing and story making. And it was confusing because I thought if I’m not, you know, during the memoir, I would be like crying while I was writing and it was just taking everything out of me.
And I was like, if I’m not actively upset. Is the writing even good? Like, like, you know, does it count? And it turns out, yes, you can still create successful stories and have a good time. So I did that book for myself really. And the kid in me who always wanted to, who was always, writing stories unprompted. Like you said, it was a book about a sock detective and pursuing socks makes no sense. It’s almost impossible to return a missing sock in New York City. But I loved the idea of these. This little girl in pursuit of something, even if she doesn’t know what the outcome will be. Right. It’s just trying even if you’re not promised a reward, I love this.
And for me it’s like I keep attempting to love my reality, right? Attempting to go out into the world with an exploratory lens rather than a fearful one. And so that was very healing for me. After I finished that book, I spent the next year writing this new book, the Moon Without Stars. It’s for slightly older kids, like you said in middle school.
So my protagonist Luna, is 12 years old and she’s biracial like me, goes to middle school in Northern California like I did in Palo Alto. I was just reflecting on my. Upbringing, I would say, and really sitting back and letting memories come to the surface. Trying to see how much, was just unexplored. And then sitting down to, to figure out what it all meant that I remembered all of these things.
Miko Lee: So how much of Luna is inspired by Chanel?
Chanel Miller: A fair amount, I’d say. And it’s not always an intentional, I think fiction deals a lot with the subconscious and you end up writing about yourself on accent luna in the book. She is the campus book doctor, is what I call it. Because when kids are going through something, they’ll come to her and she’ll prescribe them a book that’ll help them for whatever phase of life they’re going through. And I know for me from a very young age, I loved reading, writing, and drawing.
It’s all that I ever wanted to do and I was so mad in school that we had six different subjects and you know, the Bay Area was very tech. Centered, STEM centered. And so I felt all this pressure even through high school to take AP Science classes. In retrospect, I thought, why was I trying so hard to be good at it?
Everything. This is impossible. And so for Luna, I own her gifts early. And understand that they were gifts at all. The fact that she loves to read and then she shares her gifts and she takes pride in the things that she’s passionate about. She’s not ashamed that she’s not so hot about math.
Miko Lee: So the hating math part is a little Chanel inspired also.
Chanel Miller: The hating math part is fully me. I’m sorry to say.
Miko Lee: No worries. I think that stereotype about Asians and math is so highly overrated. I’m wondering if there was a Scott for you, a bestie that was also an outcast, if there was someone like that for you when you were growing up.
Chanel Miller: Yeah, so in the book, Luna is best friends with Scott. They’ve been friends since childhood, and as Luna starts to get more attention, their relationship is threatened and it begins to dissolve. I was really interested in how, Luna obviously loves Scott as a friend and she would never. Mean to hurt him, right? It’s not inflicting intentional emotional pain, but Scott gets very hurt.
I think about how sometimes when we’re growing up, we get drawn to certain crowds or paid a kind of attention and we have this longing to be desired to fit in. we sometimes make choices that we’re not very proud of, but this is a part of it, right? And so I wanted Luna to reckon with maybe some of the emotional harm she’s causing and not run away from it.
But also think about like, why am I making these choices and what is important to me? We’re all kind of constantly reevaluating our value systems, trying to keep our relationships alive, like this is, starts at a very young age and I wanted her to learn some of the self gifts that maybe I didn’t give myself when I was that age.
Miko Lee: So in a way, she’s a little bit of a remedy for your young self or a gift to your young self. Do you think?
Chanel Miller: Oh, that’s a nice way of putting it. Yeah, I would definitely say so. I think all writing is, is remedy in some form, at least for me, but I like the, it being a gift to little Chanel.
Miko Lee: It’s been compared to the classic. Are you there god, it’s me, Margaret? What is it like for you to hear that?
Chanel Miller: It’s an honor, obviously. I think what’s most stunning is a lot of the themes that were contested in that book. You know, talking about bodily changes, menstruation like. A lot of that is still kind of hush hush, and I’m surprised by the things that haven’t changed , or how our society hasn’t completely evolved. I really wanted middle school so hard physically, emotionally, and. It can feel so humiliating that you’re trying to solve a lot of your issues in private, and I wanted to take the shame out of it as quickly as possible and just say, this is a universal experience. Everyone goes through these things. It’s totally okay to talk about it, even if books get banned. Find a way, find your people. Find a way to have these conversations.
Miko Lee: For me, it’s so much better than, are you there? God, it’s me, Margaret, because it’s set in a contemporary. There’s a young biracial Asian American girl who’s a outcast and really it’s about belonging and getting your first period and all the things you have to go through in middle school. That seems really. Relatable for a young woman in our society. I appreciate that. Thank you so much. I read it really quick one night, easily read ’cause it’s so lovely. I’m wondering about your process because you illustrated, your last book and then also the cover of this book. And on the cover it’s sweet because it has all these cute little zines that she writes about are encapsulated on the cover of the book, which you only realize after you read it. I’m wondering for you as an artist, what comes first in the story, the image or the words?
Chanel Miller: That’s a great question. Yeah. I like to illustrate my books. Sometimes I’ll think of a, something I do wanna draw and then think, how can I build a story around that, or like a visually rich scene. Then I come up with writing to allow myself to draw the thing. Other times I will just write, but I, I will say that when I’m writing, I never have a plot.
I’m not an outliner. I am very much an explorer. I’m okay with not knowing for long periods of time where the book is gonna go, what it’s about , and how it’s gonna end. I don’t know any of these things. And luckily I have a very gracious, agent and editor and my editor. I had two editors, Jill and Juan, and they let me just submit chunks of writing for six months. Scenes that didn’t go together, that were completely out of order , to show them I’m attempting to build this world and this school full of kids, but I don’t know how it’s all gonna play out yet. And then after six months, we had enough material to, to begin to identify like who the primary characters were gonna be, what the essential conflict was gonna be.
I’m saying this because I want people to know that you don’t have to know much before you sit down to write. And the knowing comes with the practice of doing every day, and then slowly things start to reveal themselves.
Miko Lee: Oh, I appreciate that. So you don’t have a linear timeframe. You kind of just let things come to you. Sometimes they’re in images, sometimes they’re in words.
Chanel Miller: Yes. And then your job is to capture them and be curious about them and then make more until you have enough. Then you can edit, but you edit too early, you’re gonna , kill the spirit of the thing.
Miko Lee: When do you know you have enough?
Chanel Miller: When you fulfill the word count in your contract? No, no, I think it’s, it’s like you can. Sort of start to feel things click into place or a voice is emerging that’s very strong. Even Scott know, Luna’s best friend, I didn’t have him at the very beginning, I don’t think originally. Originally, I think Luna had a sister. It was gonna be a sister book, and then it became a friend. You’re just open to it evolving, and then suddenly you’re like, oh, I can, I can see this relationship. Can see them existing within the structure. It feels more real to you and at that point you can just go in and start revising
Miko Lee: Did you create images for know my name?
Chanel Miller: I actually tried to, at the very end, I made a bunch of drawings and I said, can we put these at the start of each chapter? And my editor, who’s incredible, she said, you know, when I look at your drawings, they have a different voice than your writing voice. And I was like, that is true. Like, that’s a great critique.
So instead I went to New York, they were like about to send the book to print and I was like, okay, but I need like one drawing. They said, okay, if you can do it at lunch, like have it done by the end of lunch, we’ll put it in the acknowledgement. So I dedicated the book to my family and. I sat at the desk and just did this little, these four little creatures that represented my immediate family and cut it outta my notebook. They scanned it in and sent it off to print with a book. So I did get, I did get it.
Miko Lee: And how is the illustrator’s voice different from the author’s voice?
Chanel Miller: The illustrator’s voice can be very loose, whimsical, playful, whereas the writing, you know, was so measured and heavy and intentional, and so. I liked that edit, and I also, my editor was confident that I would have more opportunities in the future to write and draw, whereas I felt so vulnerable. It’s my first book, it’s my only chance to say or do anything, but that’s not true. Now I understand like I have time to make all kinds of things. You don’t have to shove it all into one project.
Miko Lee: And are these, more youth-focused books? Do you feel like that’s more a combination of your illustrator and your author voice?
Chanel Miller: Totally. The medium like allows you to do both. It kind of asks for images also. Who knows, maybe, I still wanna write, contemporary fiction for adults and maybe I’ll adults like visuals too. Absolutely.
Miko Lee: Absolutely. Yeah. I’m wondering what you want young readers to walk away with after reading the, your latest book.
Chanel Miller: Things smooth out in really unexpected ways. And that you can never truly mess up. Like I messed up so many times growing up or would get a really bad grade. I really would think like, this is the end.
Like my future just disappeared. I just can’t recover from this, and I always would, and I’m here now, like there, there are so many times I guess, that I thought my life was totally and completely over and, it was never the case. Sure, life could be sour for a bit, or you could be really stressed out, but it’s not the end.
Different things will change. People will be introduced to help you. Like you just keep showing up in whatever way you can. You won’t be stuck in that place. It’s been a nice thing to learn, as you get older. I just remember when I felt young, it felt so impossible sometimes, and I promise it’s not,
Miko Lee: I imagine that with Know my name. Many people came up with you, survivors came up and shared their stories with you, and I’m wondering if that was the same with your second book, if people came up and just told stories about, being a kid detective or what their, if it brought things up for them in a totally different realm.
Chanel Miller: Oh yeah, absolutely. In the book, Magnolia’s parents are Chinese and, , they’re working at a laundromat and a customer comes in and there’s, microaggressions happen and, I think with microaggressions you can always. Justify them in your head and say, it’s not as bad as explicit violence or something, where it’s not a truly a crime.
And so you kind of push them to the side, push them to the side, but over time, like they do really stick with you and they’re so hurtful and they accumulate and they’re not okay to begin with. And I wanted my little character, Magnolia to. Just feel that anger that I often suppress and be like, it’s not okay for people to talk to you like that.
Like we are allowed to say something about it. It’s dehumanizing and it’s unacceptable. I wanted to give her the opportunity to confront that emotion and really express what, how it made her feel.
Miko Lee: You’re just starting your book tour right now. Is that right? For the Moon Without Stars.
Chanel Miller: My book comes out January 13th. I’ll go on a two week book tour. I’ll have two stops in the Bay area. One at, book passage in Cord Madera. One in Los Altos at a church. It’s sponsored by Linden Tree Books. We’re just doing the event offsite, so if you’re in the bay and wanna come say hello, please do that.
Miko Lee: Yay. Excited to hear about that. I’m curious, I’m really curious what kind of stories people will tell you about their kind of middle school bully experience or their standing up to bullies and wanting to be in the popular crowd and what’s that like? It’s such a common middle school experience.
Chanel Miller: I’m just really happy that people like have the opportunity to remember, ’cause it’s not what we talk about every day. I just love that things are coming up for people and you’re like, wow, I never would’ve thought about that or. I, I, that’s why writing is so fun. You get to remember.
Miko Lee: It’s definitely not what we talk about every day, but definitely that middle school time really, helps shape who we are as adults. That’s a really tough time because there’s so many hormones going crazy in your body. So many changes that I think a lot of people have big feelings about middle school. Tell us what’s next for you.
Chanel Miller: I still love writing middle grade like this age is so sweet. It’s so rich, emotionally rich. I would like to do something that’s, you know, this one was more contemporary realism and I would love to do something that, not pure fantasy, but like breaks the rules of reality a little bit. Just really see where my imagination can go. A little magical realism perhaps. Yeah, absolutely.
Miko Lee: I would just encourage you, I really love the Scott and Luna characters and seeing them patch their relationship up in high school as friends and how they can grow. Oh, I think would be a really sweet story also, and how they could explore maybe through magical realism. Some of the, book Doctors Zine World would be fun. Yeah. Yeah. I like those characters, is what I’m saying. I think there’s more to come outta those characters and their friendship.
Chanel Miller: Oh, that’s really sweet. You don’t wanna say goodbye to them yet.
Miko Lee: Yeah, that’s right. Well, it has been a delight chatting with you. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and your work and it’s very powerful. Appreciate chatting with you.
Chanel Miller: I really appreciate the platform you provide and how you’re making room for these genuine conversations. So thank you so much.
Jalena Keane-Lee: Next up, listen to blues scholars ode to Yuri Kochiyama. That was Blue Scholars, Ode to Yuri Kochiyama.
Miko Lee: Yuri Koyama said, we are all part of one another, and that relates so well to my conversation with author, organizer and teacher Kazu Haga. Welcome, Kazu Haga to Apex Express. I’m so glad to have you with us.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Miko Lee: I’m gonna start with a question that I ask all of my guests because I’m a curious person, and my question is, who are your people and what legacy do you carry with you?
Kazu Haga: Oh, wow. Well, when you ask the second question, the immediate response is that I am Japanese. There’s a lot of important legacies that come with that. Of course there’s so much of my Japanese ancestry that I’m proud of and want to continue to deepen in and understand better. But I’m also aware that, you know, being Japanese, I come from colonizer people, right? And I’m so aware of the. Harm that my ancestors caused to so many people, whether dating back all the way to indigenous. I knew people in Japan, or a lot of the violence that my ancestors committed during the war to Zan Korean communities and Chinese communities and Filipino communities. I feel like in addition to all the beauty and the amazing things that I love about Japanese culture, that’s a legacy that I carry with me and a lot of my work has to do with trying to understand what it means to carry that legacy and what it means to try to heal from that legacy and how I take that approach into my own personal life as well as into my activist work.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for recognizing that history and sharing a little bit about your path. I can see so much of how that turns up in your work. So I’ve had the pleasure of reading your two latest two books. I’m sure there’ll be many more to come, I hope. Can you speak a little bit about what inspired you to create healing resistance?
Kazu Haga: Yeah, so healing resistance is my interpretation of a set of teachings called kingian non-violence, and it’s a philosophy that was based on the teachings of Dr. Martin Luther King. And I have the great privilege to have been mentored by a lot of elders who work very closely with Dr.
King and were some of the most instrumental leaders in the civil Rights movement. I started my kind of activist career back in 1999 or something like that when I was 18, 19 years old. And for the longest time, the word non-violence didn’t have a lot of meaning to me. But when I was 28 years old, I think I took this two-day workshop on this philosophy called King Non-Violence, and that two-day workshop just completely changed my life forever.
I thought after 10 years of doing nothing but social justice movement building work, that I had some idea of what the word non-violence meant and some idea of who Dr. King was. But that two day workshop taught me that I knew nothing about what the word non-violence meant. Since I took that workshop, I feel like I’ve been on this never ending journey to better understand what it means to practice non-violence and incorporate that as a value into my life.
And so healing resistance is, yeah, just my spin on the teachings of Dr. King told through the stories of my life experiences.
Miko Lee: I really appreciated how you wove together your personal journey with your, understanding of movement building and how you incorporated that in. I’m wondering, I think it was in this book, but I read both of your books close to back to back, so I might be mixing them up, but I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the salt protestors that happened in India and the two years of training that it took them to be able to stand up and for our listeners, just like really back up and explain what that protest was about, and then the kind of training that it took to get there.
Kazu Haga: It was actually more than two years. So, you know, everyone, or a lot of people know about the Salt March. It’s the thing that I think a lot of people look to as the thing that really sparked the Indian Independence Movement, similar to the Montgomery Bus boycott in the US Civil Rights Movement. It’s when a group of people marched across India all the way to the ocean.
Engaged in an act of civil disobedience was, which was to go into the water and make their own salt. Salt is something that had been heavily controlled and taxed by the British Empire, and so the people who lived even on the coast of the ocean were not allowed to make their own salt. And so it was an act of civil disobedience to break a British colonial law saying that we are reclaiming this ancestral cottage industry for ourselves.
And one of the reasons why it was so powerful and drew so many millions of people out into the street was because when Gandhi envisioned it. He didn’t just put out an open call and said, anyone who wants to join the March can join. Ultimately, that’s where they landed. But when the March started, he selected, I think it was about 76 of his followers, and he chose these 76 people and said, you all are gonna start the Salt March.
And he chose those 76 people because they had lived in Astrom. And did spiritual practice and engaged in creative nonviolent direct action together for 16 years before they embarked on the salt march. So it was 16 years of kinda like dedicated residential spiritual training , and nonviolent direct action training that allowed these people to become the type of leaders that could draw out millions and millions of people into the street.
And so it’s one of the things that I really learned about the legacy of nonviolence is the importance of training and understanding that preparing ourselves spiritually to lead a movement that can transform nations is a lifetime of work. And to not underestimate the importance of that training and that rigor.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for correcting me. Not two but 16 years and a really a lifetime to, that’s right. To develop the skills. I wonder if you’ve been following the Buddhist monks that are walking across the US right now.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. And the dog, right?
Miko Lee: Yeah. Whose dog and that dog. And I wonder what your thoughts are on that.
Kazu Haga: I’ve really come to this place where I understand injustice and state violence, not as a political issue, but as a manifestation of our collective trauma. Like all the forms of state violence and injustice that we see, they happen because collectively as nation states and as communities and as a species, we have unresolved trauma that we haven’t been able to heal from. And I think if we can see injustice less as a political issue and more as a manifestation of collective trauma, then perhaps we can build movements that have the sensitivity to understand that we can’t just shut down injustice that when you’re responding to a trauma response, what you need to do is to try to open things up.
Things like spiritual practice and spiritual worldviews, like what, however that word spiritual lands on people. I think that there’s a broad understanding of spirituality that doesn’t have to include any sort of religious stigma. But when we ground ourselves in spiritual practice, when we ground ourselves in this larger reality that we belong to something so much larger than ourselves as individuals, then a lot more is possible and we’re able to open things up and we’re able to slow things down in response to the urgency of this moment, which I think is so necessary.
When I look at these Buddhist monks spending however months it’s gonna take for them to reach Washington dc the patience. The rigor and the slowness. How every step is a prayer for them. And so all of those steps, all of that effort is I think adding to something that has the possibility to open something up in a way that a one day protest cannot. So I’m really inspired by that work.
Miko Lee: And it’s amazing to see how many people are turning out to walk with them or to watch them. And then on the same hand, or the other hand, is seeing some folks that are protesting against them saying, that this is not the right religion, which is just. Kind of shocking to me. Grew up in a seminary environment. My dad was a professor of social ethics and we were really taught that Jesus is a son of God and Kuan is a daughter of God. And Muhammad, all these different people are sons and daughters of God and we’re all under the same sky. So it seems strange that to me, that so many folks are using religion as a tool for. Pain and suffering and injustice and using it as a justification.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. It’s sad to hear people say that this is the wrong religion to try to create change in the world because I think it’s that worldview that is at the heart of what is destroying this planet. Right. It’s, it’s not this way. It has to be that way and this binary right. Wrong way of thinking.
Miko Lee: Yeah.
Kazu Haga: But yeah. The first spiritual book I ever read when I was 16 years old was a book by Thích Nhất Hanh called Living Buddha, living Christ. Yes. And in that book he was saying that the teachings of the Buddha and the teachings of Jesus Christ, if you really look at the essence of it, is the same thing.
Miko Lee: That’s right. Yeah. This brings us to your book, fierce Vulnerability, healing from Trauma Emerging Through Collapse. And we are living in that time right now. We’re living in a time of utter collapse where every day it seems like there’s a new calamity. We are seeing our government try to take over Venezuela right now and put police forces into Minnesota. It’s just crazy what’s going on. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about this book. Clearly it’s the Times that has influenced your title and [00:34:00] in influenced you to write this book can be, share a little bit more about what you’re aiming to do.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, and you know, it’s also Greenland and Cuba and Colombia and Panama, and it’s also the climate crisis and it’s also all of these other authoritarian regimes that are rising to power around the co, around the world.
And it’s also pandemics and the next pandemics. And we are living in a time of the poly crisis. A time that our recent ancestor, Joanna Macy calls the great turning or the great unraveling so we can get to the great turning where all of these systems are in a state of collapse and the things that we have come to, to be able to rely on are all unraveling.
And I think if we are not grounded in. Again, I use this word spirituality very broadly speaking, but if we are not grounded in a sense that we are connected to something so much larger than ourselves as individuals, I think it’s so easy to just collapse and get into this trauma response state in response to all of the crises that we are facing, and so fierce vulnerability.
It’s at the intersection of spiritual practice, trauma healing, and nonviolent action, and understanding that in response to all of these crises that we are facing, we need powerful forms of action. To harness the power necessary to create the transformations that we need to see.
And at the same time, can we see even forms of nonviolent resistance as a form of, as a modality of collective trauma healing? And what are the practices that we need to be doing internally within our own movements to stay grounded enough to remember that we are interdependent with all people and with all life.
What does it take for us to be so deeply grounded that even as we face a possible mass extinction event that we can remember to breathe and that we can remember that we are trying to create beauty, not just to destroy what we don’t like, but we are trying to affirm life. What does that look like?
And so if fierce vulnerability is an experiment, like we don’t have all the answers, but if I could just put in a plug, we’re about to launch this three month. Experiment called the Fierce Vulnerability Kinship Lab, where we’ll be gathering across the world. Participants will be placed in small teams, that are regionally based, so you can meet with people in person, hopefully, and to really try to run a bunch of experiments of what is it gonna take to respond to state violence, to respond to these crises in a way that continues to affirm life and reminds us that we belong to each other.
Miko Lee: That sounds amazingly powerful. Can you share how people can get involved in these labs?
Kazu Haga: People can check it out on my website, kazu haga.com, and it’ll link to the actual website, which is convene.community. It’s K-I-N-V-E-N-E. It’s a combination of the idea of kinship and community. It’s gonna be a really cool program. We just announced it publicly and France Weller and Ma Muse and Kairo Jewel Lingo, and it’s gonna be a lot of great teach. And we’re trying to just give people, I know so many people are yearning for a way to respond to state violence in a way that feels deeply aligned with their most sacred beliefs and their value systems around interdependence, and peacemaking and reconciliation, but also recognizes that we need to harness power that we need to.
Step out of the comfort of our meditation cushions and yoga centers and actually hit the streets. But to do so in a way that brings about healing. It’s our way of creating some communities where we can experiment with that in supportive ways.
Miko Lee: What is giving you hope these days?
Kazu Haga: My daughter and the community that I live in. Like when I look up at the world, things are in a state of collapse. Like when I watch the news, there’s a lot of things that are happening that can take away my hope. But I think if we stop looking up all the time and just start looking around, if I start looking around in, not at the vertical plane, but at the horizontal plane, what I see are so many.
Amazing communities that are being birthed, land-based communities, mutual aid networks, communities, where people are living together in relationship and trying to recreate village like structures. There are so many incredible, like healing collaboratives. And even the ways that we have brought song culture and spirit back into social movement spaces more and more in the last 10, 15 years, there are so many things that are happening that are giving birth to new life sustaining systems.
We’re so used to thinking that because the crisis is so big, the response that we need is equally big. When we’re looking for like big things, we’re not seeing movements with millions of millions of people into the in, in the streets. We’re not seeing a new nonprofit organizations with billions of dollars that have the capacity to transform the world because I think we keep looking for big in response to big.
But I think if we look at a lot of wisdom traditions, particularly Eastern Traditions, Daoism and things like that, they’ll tell us that. Perhaps the best way to respond to the bigness of the crises of our times is to stay small. And so if we look for small signs of new life, new systems, new ways of being in relationship to each other and to the earth, I think we see signs of that all over the place.
You know, small spiritual communities that are starting up. And so I see so much of that in my life, and I’m really blessed to be surrounded by a lot of that.
Miko Lee: I really appreciate how you walk the walk and talk, the talk in terms of teaching and living in a collective space and even how you live your life in terms of speaking engagements and things. Can you share a little bit about the gift economy that you practice and what’s that about? Share with our audience what that even means.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. I love this question. Thank you. So the gift economy to me is our attempts at building economic structures that learn from how natural ecosystems share and distribute its resources, right? It’s an alternative model to the market system of economics where everything is transac. If you look out into nature, nothing is transactional. Right? All of the gifts that a mycelial network gives to the forest, that it’s a part of the ecology that it’s a part of. It’s given freely, but it’s also given freely because it knows that it is part of a deeply interdependent ecosystem where it will also receive everything it needs to be nourished.
And so there’s a lot that I can say about that. I actually working on, my next book will be on the Gift Economy. But one of the main manifestations of that is all of the work that I do, I try to offer as a gift. So I don’t charge anything for the work that I do. The workshops that I organize, you know, the Convene three month program that I told you about, it’s a three month long program with world renowned leaders and we are asking people to pay a $25 registration fee that’ll support the platform that, that we’re building, the program on.
And. There’s no kind of set fee for the teachers, myself, Francis Weller, mam, all these people. And people have an opportunity to give back to the ecosystem if they feel called and if they’re able to try to sustain, to help sustain our work. But we really want to be able to offer this as a gift. And I think in the market economy, a three month virtual training with well-known teachers for $25 is unheard of.
Of course $25 doesn’t sustain me. It doesn’t sustain all of the teachers that are gonna be part of this, but I have so much faith that if we give our work freely and have faith that we are doing the work that we’re meant to be doing, that the universe will come together to sustain us. And so I am sustained with the generosity of a lot of [00:42:00] people, a lot of donors, a lot of people who come to my workshop and feel called to give, not out of a sense of obligation, but because they want to support me in my work.
Miko Lee: Thank you for sharing and I was so impressed on your website where you break down your family’s whole annual budget and everything that you spent funds on. Everybody talks about transparency, but nobody really does it. But you’re actually doing it. And for reals, just showing something that’s an antidote to the capitalist system to be able to say, okay, this is us. This is our family, this is how we travel, this is what we do, and. I found it really charming and impressive in our, it’s hard to rebel against a system where everything has been built up so that we’re supposed to act a certain way. So appreciate you. Absolutely. Yeah. Showing some alternatives and I didn’t know that’s gonna be your next book. So exciting.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, I just started it. I’m really grateful that I have a partner that is okay with sharing all of our family’s finances transparently. That helps because it is a big thing, you know? Yeah. But one of the things that I really learned. But the gift economy is that if there isn’t information, if there isn’t transparency about what the system’s needs are, then it becomes dependent on every individual to figure out.
How much they want to give to that system. And I think the gift economy is trying to break outta that the model of individualism and understand that we are interdependent and we live in this rich ecosystem of interdependence. And so if people’s needs aren’t transparent, then it’s hard for people to figure out how they want to engage in that relationship.
Miko Lee: Can you share a little bit more the example of Buddhist monks and how they have the basket and. Share that story a bit for our audience.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. So historically, in a lot of, particularly south and southeastern, Asian countries, Buddhist monks, they go around, they walk their community every morning, begging, quote unquote for alms.
They ask for donations, and the people in that village in that town will offer them bread or rice or whatever it is. That’s kind of the food that, that monks and monastics eat. And so if a Buddhist monk is walking around with a bowl and you see that their bowl is already full, you have a sense, oh, this monastic might not need any more food, but the next monastic that comes along might.
And so it’s this transparent way of saying, oh, this person’s needs are met, so let me hold on to the one piece of bread that I have that I can donate today and see if the next person will need it. And so in that way. If I share my finance transparently, you know, if my financial needs for the month or for the quarter are met, then maybe people who attend my workshops will feel like, oh, I don’t have a lot of money to give.
Maybe I don’t need to give to support Kazu Haga, but maybe I can support, the facilitator for the next workshop that I attend. And so, in that way, I’m hoping that me being transparent about where my finances are will help people gauge how they want to be in relationship with me.
Miko Lee: Thank you. I appreciate it. You talk a lot about in your work about ancestral technology or the wisdom, our ancestral wisdoms and how powerful that is. It made me think about the day after the election when Trump was elected. I happened to be in this gathering of progressive artists in the Bay Area and everybody was. Incredibly depressed. There was even, should we cancel that day or not? But we pulled together, it was at the Parkway Theater in Oakland and there was an aone leader and she talked about the eighth fire and how we are in the time of the eighth fire and you write about the fires in your book, and I’m wondering if you can talk about the seven fires and the prophecy belt.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. So through a strange course of events, I had the incredible privilege early on in my life when I was in my early teens, 11, 12, 13, 14 years old, to spend every summer going to the Algonquin Reservation, Anishnabe Nation, way up in Northern Quebec, and spend my evenings sleeping in the basement of Chief William Commander, who was the holder of the seven Fire Prophecies Wampum Belt.
This is a prophecy that told the story of the seventh fire that we are in the time of the seventh fire. And this is a moment in the history of our species where we can remember what it means to be human and to go backwards and to reclaim our spiritual path. If we are able to do that, then we can rebuild a new world, the eighth fire and build a world of lasting peace.
But if we are unable to do that and continue down this material journey, that will lead to a world of destruction. And this is, prophecies like this one and similar indigenous prophecies that speak the same exact things are the things that were. Just surrounded, that I was surrounded by when I was younger, and I’m so grateful that even though I didn’t really believe this kind of stuff when I was younger, it was like the, you know, crazy hippie newey stuff that my mom was into.
I’m so grateful to have been surrounded by these teachings and hearing these teachings directly from the elders whose lives purpose. It was to share these teachings with us because when I look out at the world now, it really feels like we are in a choice point as a species. Like we can continue to walk down one journey, one path, and I could very easily see how it would lead to a world of destruction.
But we have an opportunity to remember who we are and how we’re meant to live in relationship with each other and to the earth. And I have a lot of faith that if we’re able to do that, we can build such a beautiful future for our children. And so I think this is the moment that we’re in.
Miko Lee: Yeah. Thank you so much. Can you share a little bit about your mom? It seems like she was a rule breaker and she introduced you to so many things and you’re appreciating it later as an adult, but at the time you’re like, what is this?
Kazu Haga: Yeah. You know, she was. She grew up in Japan. We were all born in Japan, but she spent a year overseas in the United States as ex as an exchange student in high school. And she always tells me when she went back to Japan, she was listening to the Beatles, and she shaved her legs and she was this like rebellious person in Japan. But yeah, my mom is never been a political activist in the same way that, that I’ve become. But she’s always been deeply, deeply grounded in spiritual practice.
Miko Lee: Mm-hmm.
Kazu Haga: And for various reasons have always had deep relationships with indigenous elders in North America and Turtle Island. And so I’m always grateful. I feel like she sowed a lot of seeds that when I was young, I made fun of meditation and I was not into spiritual practice at all. 45 years into my life, I find myself doing all the same things that, that she was doing when I was young, and really seeing that as the foundation of the work that I do in the world today.
Miko Lee: And have you, have you talked with her about this?
Kazu Haga: Oh yeah. I live with her, so we regularly Oh, I
Miko Lee: didn’t realize
Kazu Haga: that.Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she’s read the book and Yeah. We have a lot of opportunities to, to yeah, just talk and, and reminisce and, and wonder at. How life has a tendency to always come back full circle.
Miko Lee: Mm. The paths we lead and how they intertwine in some ways. Definitely. Mm, I love that. I let you know before we went on air is that I’m also interviewing the author Chanel Miller in this episode. You shared with me that you are familiar with her work. Can you talk about that?
Kazu Haga: Yeah, so, you know, I talk quite a bit in both of my books about how one of the great privileges that I have is to do restorative justice and trauma healing work with incarcerated people, mostly through the prisons in California.
And one of the programs that I’ve had the privilege to be a part of is with the Ahimsa Collective, where we work with a lot of men who have an experience with sexual violence specifically, both as survivors of sexual harm and as perpetrators oftentimes. And in that program we actually used the letter that she wrote and published as an example of the power of what it could mean to be a survivor speaking their truth.
And we used to read this letter in the groups with incarcerated people. And I remember the first time I ever read it, I was the one that was reading it out loud. I broke down into tears reading that, that letter, and it was so powerful. And it’s one of those written statements that I think has helped a lot of people, incarcerated people, and survivors, oftentimes, they’re both the same people, really heal from the scars that they’ve experienced in life. So yeah, I have a really deep connection to specifically that statement and her work.
Miko Lee: Yeah, it’s really powerful. I’m wondering, given that how you use art as a tool to heal for yourself.
Kazu Haga: You know, I always wished I was a better poet or a better painter or something like that, but I do really feel like there are certain deep truths that cannot be expressed in just regular linear language. It can only be spoken in song or in dance or in poetry. There’s something mystical. There’s something that, that is beyond the intellect capacity to understand that I think can be powerfully and beautifully expressed through art.
I think art and spiritual practice and prayer and things like that are very like closely aligned. And so in that way I, I try to touch the sacred, I try to touch spirit. I try to touch mystery in the things that I can’t quite articulate. Just through conversation and giving in a lecture or a PowerPoint presentation, to, yeah, to touch into something more, more important.
Miko Lee: And is your spiritual practice built into your every day?
Kazu Haga: To the extent possible. One of the traditions that I have really learned a lot from and love is the Plum Village tradition founded by Thich Nhat Hanh. And they’re so good at really reminding us that when we wash our dishes, that can be a spiritual practice, right?
I’m the father of a young child. And so it’s hard to actually sit down and meditate and to find time for that. And so, how can I use. My moments with my daughter when I’m reading her a book as a spiritual practice, how can I, use the time that I’m picking up the toys that’s thrown all around the house as spiritual practice. So in that way, I really try to incorporate that sort of awareness and that reminder that I belong to something larger and everything that we do.
Miko Lee: After hearing Ty speak one time, I tried to practice the chewing your food 45 times. I could not do it. Like, how does he do
Kazu Haga: that? Some food is easier than others. If you eat oatmeal, it’s a little harder, but
Miko Lee: like that is some kind of practice I cannot do.
Kazu Haga: But, you know, I have, a meditation teacher that years ago taught me every time you get inside your car. The moment that you turn the keys and turn on the ignition in your car, just take that moment and see if you can notice the texture of the keys and see if you can really feel your muscles turning to turn the key. And it’s in these little moments that if we bring that intention to it, we can really turn what is like a, you know, a mindless moment into something with deep, deep awareness. Hmm.
Miko Lee: Thank you for that. That’s an interesting one. I have not heard that one before.
Kazu Haga: Nowadays I just like push a button so it’s even more mind less.
Miko Lee: That’s right. There’s just a button Now. Keys, there’s not even the time anymore to do that. That’s right. What is it that you’d love folks to walk away with from being familiar with your work? You, there’s so many aspects. You have different books that are out, you lead workshops, you’re speaking, you are everyday walking through the world, sharing different things. What is one thing you’d love people to understand?
Kazu Haga: Between both of my books and all the work that I do, so much of the essence is to try to help us remember. We belong to each other. I think the fear of isolation, the fear that we do not belong, is one of the most common fears that every human being has. Right? At some point in our lives, we felt like we don’t belong. And while that is such a real fear, it’s also a delusion. Like in an interdependent world, there is nothing outside of belonging, right? And so we already belong. We are already whole, we are already part of the vastness of the cosmos. There is so much power in remembering that we are part of the infinite universe, and I think the delusion that we do not belong to each other is like is the seed that creates the us versus them worldview, and it’s that us versus them worldview that is at the heart of what is destroying our planet.
In our efforts to create social change, how can we do so in a way that reminds us that even the people that are causing harm is a deeply critical interwoven web of relationships. That we are all in this web of relationship, that there’s nobody outside of that, and how can we go about trying to create change in a way that reminds us of that?
Miko Lee: Thank you. And my last question is, I’m wondering if there’s something that you’re learning from your child these days.
Kazu Haga: Yeah, the, just the, the pure presence, right? That each moment is so deeply, deeply real, and each moment is to be honored. Like I am amazed at, we were eating asparagus the other day, and she was eating a whole bowl of asparagus, and she desperately needed me to get her the one piece of asparagus that she wanted.
She was so frustrated that I couldn’t find the one asparagus that she wanted, and so she was crying and screaming and throwing asparagus across the room, and then the moment I was able to find the one asparagus that she wanted, everything is fine. Everything is beautiful. She’s smiling, she’s laughing, and so just to.
Not that we should be like throwing things around if we’re not getting exactly what we want, but how can we honor our emotions every moment in a way that in that moment there is nothing outside of that moment. That sort of presence, is something that I really try to embody and try to learn from her.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for sharing with me. I really appreciate reading your books and being in community with you and, we’ll put links to your website so that people Awesome. Thank you. Can find out more. And also, I really appreciate that you’re having your books published by a small Buddhist press as and encouraging people to buy from that.
Kazu Haga: Yeah. Shout out to ax.
Miko Lee: Yes, we will absolutely put those links in our show notes. And thank you so much for joining us on Apex Today.
Kazu Haga: Thank you so much for having me.
Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining me on this evening conversation with two different authors, Chanel Miller and Kazu Haga, and my little pitch is just to keep reading. Reading is such a critical and important way we learn about the world. I was just reading this thing that said the average Americans read 12 to 13 books a year.
And when I checked in with friends and family, they said that could not be true. That they think they know many people who don’t read any books. And I am just encouraging you all to pick up a book, especially by an Asian American Pacific Islander author, hear our perspectives, hear our stories. This is how we expand and understand our knowledge around the world.
Grow closer to the people in both our lives and people around the world. So yea to reading, yea to Chanel Miller and Kazu Haga. And check out a local bookstore near you. If you wanna find out more information, please check out our website, kpfa.org, black slash programs, apex Express, where I will link both of these authors and how you can purchase their books at your local independent bookstore.
Thank you very much. Goodnight. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important.
Apex Express is produced by Ayame Keane-Lee, Anuj Vaidya, Cheryl Truong, Isabel Li, Jalena Keane-Lee, Miko Lee, Nina Phillips, Preeti Mangala Shekar and Swati Rayasam Tonight’s show was produced by me, your host, Miko Lee. Thank you so much for joining us.