APEX Express – 8.26.21 DragonFruit Episode 2 | Juicy fruit: the ripe time to talk about relationships

Show Transcript

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

relationships, queer, people, life, dragon fruit, conflict, love, feel, person, gisele, romantic, shared, friends, marriage, community, queerness, romance, building, moment, yuan

SPEAKERS

APEX Opener, Justine Xu, Vanessa Coe, Yuan Wang, Shreya Basu, Miko Lee, Ellen Tanouye, Hana Kadoyama, Jo Hsu, Vida Kuang, Satyajit Pande, Gisele, Khanie, Canyon Sam, Grace, Paige Chung, Surabhi

APEX Opener 00:00

APEX Express, Asian Pacific expression. [music plays] Unity and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the APEX Express.

Miko Lee 02:39

Good evening. This is Miko Lee and you’re listening to APEX Express, where we focus on the Asian American and Pacific Islander experiences. Tonight, we’re proud to present the Dragon Fruit Project, an international project that explores queer Asian and Pacific Islanders and their stories about love and activism in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s.

Yuan Wang 03:12

Hello, and welcome to the Dragon Fruit Podcast, the podcast where we reflect on the history of Trans and Queer, Asian and Pacific Islander organizing, get into some juicy and sweet conversations about love, and reclaim space for our own stories.

Shreya Basu 03:32

This episode is produced by members of APIENC, a grassroots organization that builds Trans and Queer Asian and Pacific Islander power to amplify our voices and increase the visibility of our communities.

Yuan Wang 03:48

We want to take a moment to acknowledge that we are writing, producing and recording this podcast on stolen unceded Ohlone land. We want to ask our non indigenous listeners to contribute to the Shuumi land tax, which goes towards the Sogorea Te Lland Trust’s work of repatriation of Ohlone people’s land. And with that, my name is Yuan, my pronouns are she and they and I’m one of APIENC’s community organizers.

Shreya Basu 04:19

And my name is Shreya, my pronouns are they them, and I am a volunteer for APIENC. We’re excited to be your narrators for this episode on love. And let me just say, a QTAPI podcast is really not complete without talking about love.

Yuan Wang 04:36

Today, you’ll be hearing our voices as your narrators, as well as the voices of the individuals invited to share their stories on this podcast. In our conversations about love and relationships, we talked to a lot of people of different genders, ages and perspectives. And we asked them, How have you come to understand love and relationships? How has that changed over the years? We’re not only going to hear about romantic love, we’ll explore other types of intimacy and love as well. We’ll dig into the pressures we face as Trans and Queer, and as API people, and the expansiveness and messiness of finding connection and intimacy in this life.

Shreya Basu 05:27

Before we get started, I want to give a content warning that we will be mentioning issues of sex, touch and conflict throughout this episode. We will also provide a gentle reminder before each section, so you may skip certain parts if you’d like.

Vida Kuang 05:44

But it’s such a common thing in like QTPOC communities, they’re like “What’s your understanding of love?” and then people talk about it for like, until 3am. And like they just met each other.

Yuan Wang 05:59

Vida is right. There’s something so special about people’s juicy and spicy love and relationship stories. So often, love, relationships and pleasure, are pushed to the side, saved for moments when we’re not too busy with work, navigating the challenges in our lives, or organizing. But as adrienne marie brown writes, “love, joy, and feeling good is not frivolous. It is freedom.” As many of us are finding, pleasure and love are the point.

Shreya Basu 06:35

Since this is a podcast about making space for love and relationships, juicy stories, joy and pleasure. What is more appropriate than starting off talking about queering romance, Grace and Khanie have been together for 11 years. And their love is intertwined with a shared passion of healing, self sovereignty, and uplifting our community. And most recently, they have been advocates of financial literacy. We’ll be hearing from the pair’s first Dragon Fruit interview in 2015, where Grace tried to gauge how Khanie felt about marriage

Grace 07:16

Drag her around to like different sites in the city. I’m such a big tourist even though we’ve lived here for like over three years, but there’s so many different places to explore. So you know, a perfect day would be to get up early, we go sightseeing, and actually I go for a hike and then go to a fancy dinner, and then come home and watch a movie on the couch. Like all those things would be be great. And Khanie is now at a point in her life where I think she’s, she’s happy to just be at home.

Khanie 07:44

Yeah, roll around in bed and relax with you. My perfect day.

Grace 07:53

Did you want to talk about the marriage equality stuff? That was kind of a big deal. Did you ever think that you’d get married?

Khanie 07:58

Oh, no. And well, because growing up not really having that model of like, you know, same sex marriage or whatever, I could never see myself in that hetero, hetero normative model. So I never considered it to be a possibility for me, because I might never gonna be wearing a dress. And that just seems weird to like, spend your life with some male and like, it just never made any sense to me so. So it was never part of my, you know, world. But now that it’s available, or like there’s so many people coming together, committing their lives together and things like that. I’m still thinking about it, trying to figure out how that fits in my life. But now, it is a possibility. So it’s like, it’s kind of good. More than good. For so many different reasons. What about you?

Grace 08:54

Well, for me, I grew up with parents that love each other so much. I mean, they’re like inseparable. And they’ve been married for over 30 years now. And so, I’ve seen their relationship change. Over time. I’ve seen them really happy together. I seen them when they you know being close to divorce, but yet they were able to work through it. So, and I’ve seen them make it through together, through different struggles like financially with their kids, like myself and my my younger brother, he has a disability. And so I’ve seen them support each other throughout the relationship. So for me, it was always, like I expected to have that in my life at some point, with somebody, so I always figured that I’d eventually get married to somebody. It’s just whenever the right person came along, some bunny, some bunny.

Khanie 09:50

We have two bunnies. Cool. Yeah.

Grace 09:56

So you don’t think that so now so now that it is available, you don’t think that? Well, I? Well, you said that at some point, you could actually see why people get married now, even though…

Khanie 10:09

Well, I think the whole like settling down thing. And I mean, in our current structure of like, society, it makes like sense in various ways. But the whole,the romantic aspect of it. Yeah, I think as I’m getting older, I feel like “Yeah, why not plan a future with one person or, and kind of have that thing?” I’ve not very articulate about it, because I’m still like processing the whole thing. So, but yeah, commitment is, it should be a possibility for a long time or something.

Grace 11:01

That’s good to know. Well, I was wondering if you would make it like a real real possibility and…

Khanie 11:08

What? Really?

Grace 11:12

Marry me.

Khanie 11:13

What, are you serious? Are you really serious? You’re doing this right now? On record? Oh, my God. Really?

Grace 11:24

Yes Khanie, I love you very much. Would you please one day be my wife?

Khanie 11:30

Um, okay.

Shreya Basu 11:40

Oh my gosh, someone asking someone to get married and it being recorded for a podcast. That’s pretty wild.

Yuan Wang 11:48

I know, I cannot imagine how brave you have to be to do something like that.

Shreya Basu 11:54

And it’s recorded for forever, those kinds of special.

Yuan Wang 11:58

It’s pretty incredible. But I think that even though marriage is seen as the ultimate goal or achievement of what cisheteronormative relationships are supposed to look like, Khanie really challenges this expectation and asks Grace the question, “How can we build a queer marriage? So it’s not just centered around this narrow view of romance, but shaped instead around possibilities, and an expensive way of committing to each other.”

Shreya Basu 12:27

And now 6 years later, Grace and Khanie are actually married. Last year, we returned to Grace and asked her what she learned during those six years.

Grace 12:38

I didn’t really think about marriage, necessarily the way that mainstream culture thinks that women should think about marriage. I didn’t imagine myself in a white dress, and calling that the, you know, the love when it happens. And I never envisioned myself necessarily with a male, either, even though that was something that was kind of expected or assumed from my parents. But I didn’t have that sort of fantasy when I think of marriage and love. But I just assumed that I would come find someone that I’d be willing to commit myself to, the way that my parents were able to, and I saw that it didn’t just come magically like that. It’s as a result of a lot of work and commitment and dedication. So I just felt like with with Khanie, it was someone because of how much effort she puts into healing herself and working on herself. I figured that if she loved someone, that she would put in that same amount of work into the relationship. And I so I just I just saw my partner in her and in that way. And she, although she didn’t, she never imagined marriage in that way, because she’s also more of a butch presenting lesbian. So the idea of marriage and what that looked like, was never something she could relate to. So when I proposed, she had never really thought about marriage until I proposed. So she had to come to terms with that too, of like it being actually an option for her as someone that is a butch presenting lesbian that didn’t grow up in like a heteronormative nuclear family structure traditionally. So we came from opposite spectrums in that and have like, helped each other to understand commitment and marriage in our own our own unique way. So it’s not like my parents or her family were deeper. It’s just our own.

Yuan Wang 14:34

How we navigate our relationships and even our queerness is so shaped by our identities, by our unique heritage and histories. So often, how we understand and express our love is a reflection of who we are not just as queer and trans people, but also as Asians and Pacific Islanders.

Shreya Basu 14:53

It’s a reflection of what we learned or unlearned, from our parents and guardians. Generational histories of war trauma, immigration can contribute to the tension we feel in our connections with others. Sometimes relationships with our loved ones require so much self work, and so much work together. And sometimes we have to let go of toxic relationships, but finding and building healthy connections, healthy love, it’s so worth it.

Yuan Wang 15:23

When we add on queerness to the idea of romance and long term commitment, we are invited and challenged to create our own definitions of relationships, outside of typical cisheteronormative expectations.

Shreya Basu 15:38

And yes, romance isn’t a fairy tale, Grace and Khanie had to forge their own way of being married. For Grace and Khanie, this meant figuring out what they needed, and resisting against gendered social norms that told them otherwise.

Yuan Wang 15:53

But what if that light bulb moment comes to you later in life, after you’ve already completed all of those life milestones that people are supposed to complete? For our next speaker, after straight marriage, after babies and after adulthood, came a queer awakening. So please get ready for some heart eyes. Ellen Tanouye is a third generation Japanese American elder and an ordained pastor who has been happily married to the love of her life since 2017. Ellen tells us about how she discovered her identity later in life. I’d like to provide a content warning that the following clip contains references to sex and touch.

Ellen Tanouye 16:42

Actually, sexual kind of romantic, that kind of appeal is oh, it makes you so, it’s like a passionate, like not a moment, but a passionate way of being. Because when, okay, so my wife will disagree with me. But I, I always liked women. And I always wanted to have a best friend even though I was married for many, many years. And so when she kissed me, she will say that she I kissed her. But when she kissed me, I never kissed a girl before. It’s like, “oh, oh my God!” I saw stars. I saw oh my gosh, I just like, was on fire. It’s like, oh, whoa. And and so that changed. We were best friends. But then when she kissed me, it’s like, oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. And so when we were able to be physically intimate, oh my god, I never experienced that before. And you know, I had four boys. Hello. So, you know, I mean, I’ve been there done that. But being able to experience as sexual love with another woman? Oh, my goodness. I mean, I saw stars, I tell you. And it’s just the most amazing thing when you love a person and you come together physically. Whoa, that’s just like, like being in heaven. Or I don’t know, like, transported to a different level of who you are. It’s just I can’t expect, I can’t express it in words.

Shreya Basu 18:43

So juicy. Although Ellen checked all the boxes to the conventional life milestones we were taught to follow, she shows us there’s no timeline for the path of self discovery. Being a bit older in your life journey doesn’t invalidate the time it took to get there. Everyone’s journey is their own. And there’s no one right way for you to discover your own queerness.

Yuan Wang 19:07

That is so true. And so often, the folks we call elders are desexualized when it comes to love. But hearing Ellen’s frankly, spicy story, and listening to her real vulnerability is so powerful. The new and messy emotions and sparks allowed her to be open to a queer and a more passionate way of being a different level of who she is. It expanded the possibilities of romance, and something so much bigger for Ellen. Shreya. as so many of our storytellers have shared, a lot of us don’t actually fit neatly into common portrayals of love. And we’ve had to figure out what love means for us through experimenting, exploring and reflecting.

Shreya Basu 19:59

Yeah, true. For our storytellers, love also stands for something beyond just romance. It’s our relationship to our friends, family, community, and even to ourselves. It’s about practicing care for each other.

Yuan Wang 20:14

Yes, that is so true. And that’s why I’m really excited that next up, we are returning to an intergenerational conversation with Justine Xu. Justine is a longtime APIENC member who always wants to know what you’re dreaming up for yourself and your world. Here, they share their perspective as an aromantic person, the importance of prioritizing different forms of love, and how scarcity can show up in romance.

Justine Xu 20:45

What’s interesting is, you know, I think the theme of what I’ve been listening to you from the three of you is that we’re destabilizing this notion of like a centralized, monogamous romantic relationship, right. And it’s so interesting for me, because I identify as aromantic and I think I’ve had conversations about that, with y’all in different varying capacities. But, you know, for me, part of what that means is, you know, romantic attraction and relationships doesn’t really make sense to me, doesn’t feel central to who I am, or who I are, how I relate to other people. And so when I, you know, I’ve often use like this analogy, when I think about love as, as, like relationships are like plants, right, and I’m in a room and I have like a circle of plants around me. And each of those plant pots represents a relationship I have with someone else, or with an idea or with something. And the reason why I love this analogy so much is because there’s a feeling of like interdependence there, where, let’s say, I’m feeding the plant, sunlight, and the other person is feeding the plant water, right. And those things are not the same thing. And they happen in different quantities and different flavors, but they both work together to keep the plant alive, right. And in my worlds, you know, my plants are people, right? So many of the people I’ve met through APIENC, people I’ve met through organizing, through deep vulnerability, through deep community work. It’s also family, right? Whether it’s chosen family, or biological communities of origin, it’s also the earth, right, and feeling connected to the earth. And that sense of reciprocity that needs to be built there. And also love with myself, love with my dreams. And even even I think love with people who totally disagree with me, or see the world differently for me, because I think it’s like a recognition that we have to still live on this planet together, you know, I can’t deny that you’re existing, and you can’t deny that I exist, right? So we have our own different type of plan to. And I think the reason why this analogy has been so central for me is because, you know, it’s not necessarily like there’s a hierarchy, right. And it’s not like I’m creating my life around other people in like a romantic relationship, it feels more like collectivists to me, right, a little more diffused in terms of in terms of power. And I think, what has been really important for me to learn through all those types of relationships, because they’re not definite, they’re definitely not equal relationships, right? Like, the relationship I have with my family of origin is so different from the relationship I have with like you all on this call, who I feel very deeply towards. But also, I think what love has really taught me is that, you know, it’s, it’s also about a lot of a lot of grief, and suffering, and pain, as much as it is about the joy, right, and the moments of like, beautiful transformation and connection, and finding the fluidity among all of those things. And so, you know, I find myself wanting to talk about being aromantic more in our like queer trans API community. And I have found a few folks who definitely resonate with a lot of the same things, right. How can we really think about love more expansively, and think about how our relationships with each other are like these testing grounds are these like playgrounds or like creative grounds, to imagine the type of world that we want to be in, right. And I think that resonates a lot with APIENC’s way of organizing to where everything is, you know, really relationships based, like even starting the Dragon Fruit Network and Dragon Fruit Project that came from a place of relationships, right? And so if, if relationships are this creative space, where we’re going to not go by the norm, and we’re going to do what makes our hearts feel most free, then, you know, why are we submitting ourselves to these, you know, structures around monogamous romantic relationships that don’t always serve us that I think, you know, have often made us feel really scarce. And I say that as someone who has been in relationships that were read as romantic or seen as romantic before, I’d really come into my identity more fully. And yeah, noticing that, for a lot of queer and trans people, we, we’ve often felt a lot of like, lack in our lives of feeling like seen or understood, you know, especially if our families of origin do not love us fully, right. And so when we, at least for me, like when you and I’ve seen is that when folks find someone who they really resonate with and connect with, there’s this like, feeling of “Oh my God, this person is the person I need to make sure I have with me for all time, because they make me feel safe. And they make me feel like I’m okay. And that is so important.” And at the same time, it’s like, you know, there’s not a lot of resilience in that if you have to depend on one person to remember that you are worthy of existing and being your full self. Right? And so how can we build that strength and skill with each other and I you know, when I think about my closest relationships in my life, the people I love so much I feel I feel so free, like, we can do anything like I you know, no matter what obstacle or struggle or challenge comes my way, like I have full belief that these people will show up for me like they are literally the loves of my life, because I have struggled with them, I have been in conflict with them. We have worked through things and support each other’s dreams, and they’ve disagreed with each other. We’ve messed up, we’ve had boundaries with each other and believing that the role that we’re still gonna be there for each other, because we do keep each other alive in the most like nurturing and like free way.

Shreya Basu 28:15

Wow, yes, just as Justine was saying, queer love is the creative practice of remaking and reshaping how we want to be in connection with each other. It’s not just about dating. It’s also about building the world. We want to live in a world where we confront isolation with care.

Yuan Wang 28:33

We learn to love from those who love us. And who loves us could be anyone who has cared for us as queer, trans and non binary folks. We have had to redefine our understandings of love, family, and parental structures.

Shreya Basu 28:51

Yes, we even have family outside blood lineage. We adopt, do surrogacy, and find alternate ways to create families, chosen or otherwise. Satyajit Pande, who is originally from Mumbai, India, and now lives in San Francisco was the publisher of Trikone Magazine for 10 years. Next, he will be sharing his journey of being a sperm donor for his longtime friend, Poonam, and the unique relationship they created from that experience.

Satyajit Pande 29:24

So, one thing that has changed is – not how very like “inflexible,” let me put that word. Inflexible [way of] relationship. It can be different things and talking about different spaces. I have a very good friend, Poonam Kapoor. And she approached me to be a sperm donor. And this was like, three, four years ago, I was almost 50 then and I said, “I’m going to be 50, I can’t take care of a kid.” But she said, “No, you can be like, a good uncle or something like that.” She was partnered. She was going to be partnered at that time. And so I ended up having a kid when I was 50.

Miko Lee 30:17

That was Dragon Fruit Podcast music by saxreligious. And you’re tuned into APEX Express on 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, and online at kpfa.org. Now let’s get back to the Dragon Fruit Podcast.

Shreya Basu 30:35

Through these unique parenting relationships, we see the values of radical abundance. To have and nourish a child with your friend outside of romantic relationships really breaks down all the barriers we thought were involved in parenting.

Yuan Wang 30:50

Yes, so incredible. and creative parenting journeys can also lead you to discover unconditional self love, through an unexpected journey. As our next storyteller Gisele found out when she became a godmother, Gisele identifies as a queer, cisgender female. She’s a proud San Franciscan of Indonesian Japanese ancestry. And her most profound relationships are with her goddaughter and her adopted dogs.

Gisele 31:21

I am a godmother, I basically co-parented my god daughter. And so for me, oh gosh, the unfolding, or the peeling back of myself, to really understand unconditional love when you welcome a child into your life and you make the commitment that, you know, “Come hell or high water, baby girl, I’m going to be there for you, you know, I am going to be there for you.” Which yeah, you say that to lovers, but do you really… I mean, you know. So but for me, it’s like, nope, you know, you know, from at least at least K through 12. I’ll be there for you. So that was one one turning point. And it really, you know, Canyon can attest, it really changed my life. I went from being the person who, you know, commitment wasn’t part of my vocabulary to being you know, the career person and you know, going up the ladder, and blah, blah, blah, to make sure that I had gainful employment, so that I can honor my obligation to this lovely little child that was growing, right. And then about 15 years later, or so, actually, like 20 years later, I had a health incident. And it really caused me to think about unconditional love in a different way. Like, who is there for you? Without question, without judgment? And who is there for you, who is happy to see you no matter what, whether you have hair, no hair, whether you you know, have [undecipherable] just whatever, just just as you are, who is there for you? And so that really caused me to relook at my, you know, friendship bubble, if you will, and it kind of, it kind of changed, you know, I kind of said, “Hey, you know, who can I count on?” Because it’s a special, it’s a special kind of love when somebody can just listen and not rush to solve and not try to change you and not try to package, you know what I mean? And when I was able to sort out and really feel for those individuals, and I say individuals, because one of my main support groups was my dog at the time, you know, and that helped me realize, “Hey, if you want to live a really rich, fulfilling life, it doesn’t have to revolve, for me, around romantic love or having that partner because, you know, I do have friends that have had 30, 40 year relationships, and I applaud them and I love seeing them together. They’re really beautiful.” But that’s not, that’s not me, that’s not my bag, you know. Going through those two events, you know, making a commitment, really caring for someone and watching them grow. And then having an health incident and really having to assess who who is my core team, you know, who are the people that were really there. It really it helped me evolve, I guess is the word.

Canyon Sam 34:16

If I can say just briefly that Gisele was the most loving, devoted parent you could ever…one time we were at these friend’s house, and I think the daughter was, I don’t know eight or something. And I you know, I said to Gisele and [name] at the time, I said “Wow, it’s really a sacrifice this parenting.” And Gisele said, “Canyon, we use the word ‘investment.'” [Laughter]

Shreya Basu 35:03

Gisele reminds us that too often, we are sold the idea that romantic love validates you as a queer person. But caring for yourself as much as another person has its own sweet rewards.

Gisele 35:16

From, you know, the innermost part of my being, I never bought that methodology of that there was only one person for you, and you have to find that person, and then you’re going to be mated for life, right? So, but when I was younger, and coming out and filling my own, I felt pressure, I truly felt pressure that there was no way that I could be queer unless I was actively dating somebody or pursuing someone. So you know, it’s like, I had to prove, I had to, what is it…observable behavior, I had to really be showing everybody my romance, right. And that tended to lend itself to at the time, people coupling, which, you know, it’s great. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve kind of realized that, you know, romantic love is, is a very strong force. But now that I’m several decades, you know, into my life journey, I, you know, it’s nice to have, but I really don’t seek it, you know, it’s not essential to my identity. Now, I feel that I’ve gotten to the place. Well, you know, dang, I really love myself, I like being, you know, spending time with myself enjoying my own company. And then when I go and hang out with people, you know, it’s all good, because I’m in a good place, you know? And guess what, now I can be queer and not coupled. Back then, back in the, you know, mid 70s, that was, you know, nobody trusted that you were really queer or lesbian unless you were dating somebody, because how do they know? Right? So I kind of fell into that, but now I feel really secure and who I am as a person as a human being. I really don’t look at love and think of romantic love, I think of familial love, I think of love that I feel for my good friends. I think of you know, love in general for like, the community. And I think of love, to actually my number one squeeze, my little Chihuahua. So you know, that’s, that’s how I, that’s how I think of love. It’s more companion ish, companionship now. But I did enjoy that wonderful thrust of energy you got when I had when I was younger, I mean, so that’s not to, not to, that works for some people, that romantic love and all the commitment, the building, the partnering, that comes with it, that’s beautiful, but I’m in a good place right now. And it’s not about romantic love for me.

Yuan Wang 38:02

Just as Gisele figured out that self love is important, Hana Kadoyama has also discovered all of the joy that sprouts when you start to focus on showing affection to yourself. Hana is a stage manager, librarian in training, and passionate introvert living on Ohlone land here in Oakland, California. So, just how does showing yourself love allow you to care for those around you better? Here’s Hana sharing some lessons they’ve learned over the past year.

Hana Kadoyama 38:36

You know, I’ve had some incredible love and dating relationships. And I’ve had some very hard love and dating relationships. And I’ve had some that were both hard and incredible. I think what’s, what’s changed and evolved for me slowly over the last few years and then sort of really clicked into place for me in the last year is, is just like, I really like myself, and I really love myself. And that was not always the case. In so many moments, these days, I’m able to look at a situation or a moment and be like, I’m really proud of the way that I moved through that moment. Or, you know, oh man, I wish I’d done that a little bit differently. But like good job, Hana. Like you really did the best you could with what you had at that moment. And what feels really juicy and beautiful for me right now, is that I’m taking all of the energy that I spent longing for a capital “R” relationship or like chasing unavailable people. And I’m I’m really focusing it in on like, how do I want to move through the world and how, how do I want to handle different situations as they come up? You know, I had, you know, situations In my workplace or with my housemates, or with my family, and I feel like I’m able to be so much more thoughtful and so much more loving and careful. I think, in this moment, because I’m like really building my relationship with myself. And I think that also makes space for loving relationships of all kinds in my life right now. Like I don’t, I don’t currently have a romantic partner, but my best friend and I are each other’s partners in every way, except for sex. They are one of my housemates and we cook together, we text each other throughout the days when we’re at work. We check in on each other. We are. We are so much of each other’s support systems. I’m really proud of, of building that relationship in a way that I wouldn’t necessarily have thought to do before, when I thought that like capital “R” relationships or romantic love, were the only things, were the only ways to do that.

Yuan Wang 41:20

Wow, Hana’s journey to self love is just so liberating. How many of us have been asked why we don’t have a partner yet? How many have been excluded from conversations just because we’re not in a romantic relationship? The happy endings we see in stories around us are almost always related to romantic love. Boo, yeah boo.

Shreya Basu 41:45

When we put romantic love on a pedestal, it gets harder to explore ourselves and our platonic loves. Next, we’ll be hearing from Paige. Paige Chung is a poet and writer from Los Angeles who rolls everywhere. Paige delves deeper as she reflects on her early 20s, and how she’s been affected by compulsory monogamy.

Paige Chung 42:09

You know, honestly, with this pandemic thing, and I’m in my early 20s, I really just wish I went to more parties, and I went on more dates, way more sexual adventures. And not like, I’m not young anymore, but it’s gonna be a long time before we can do lots of like, touchy things with strangers. And I’m just like, “Wow, I really could have lived a little bit more the last few years.” And I live at home with my parents now. But, yeah, I have been thinking about like, “What is it? What does it mean to have like, sexual freedom and to explore sexually, and frequently, and just meet lots of people?” And yeah, I have been thinking about stuff like that. But it’s hard. I think there’s something really like, with monogamy, there’s things that how do you call it, [monogamy will] reward you right? Like if you’re in a couple, if you’re in a partnership, there’s like, society will reward you with like, the way that you look in your pictures and, and also the way that you live in a home together and you can buy a home together easily. And there’s all these different rewards that make them happy, so tempting. But I’ve just been thinking about all the things that I want to do when it’s safe to touch strangers again. Yeah.

Shreya Basu 43:31

Paige is so right. There’s a reward system attached to monogamy. The way our society has been shaped by capitalism, it really makes it so that monogamy is encouraged.

Yuan Wang 43:43

Being a couple is often seen as the most stable form of relationship. Some couples can get tax breaks, are more likely to afford rent with dual incomes, and are shielded from those prying questions about life direction, life choices, and character that single people are so often questioned for. Next up, we’ll hear from Surabhi. Surabhi is a former APIENC summer organizer, and a graduate student in English language and literature at the University of Michigan. She will delve deeper into how these expectations play out for her.

Surabhi 44:23

When I think about this question, I think a lot about how different people define being queer in different ways. And how when I was growing up, I knew zero queer people of color and zero people for whom queerness was a source of community. It was every queer person I know, it was primarily about who you loved as a romantic partner. And those were the relationships that defined whether you were queer. And I feel like I’m still trying to fully unlearn that, but being part of a larger queer community that was based on other things based on togetherness, based on movement work, has made me rethink the kinds of relationships that constitute a queer network and that has made me feel more comfortable with my life and myself.

Shreya Basu 45:13

As Surabhi shared, in queer communities, romance is often a form of validation for being queer. It wasn’t till later that Surabhi found models of queerness, where it didn’t matter who she was involved with, but rather who she was in community with.

Yuan Wang 45:29

Surabhi’s experiences parallel another community member’s, Jo Hsu. Jo is an assistant professor of rhetoric and writing at the University of Texas at Austin. They’re also a core faculty member in Asian American Studies, and an affiliate of the LGBTQ studies program. Let’s hear what Jo has to say.

Jo Hsu 45:53

So much of my life was steeped in that narrative, that you’re like single monogamous, dyadic romantic partner was supposed to be love, right? That that was the definition of love. It was either that or familial love in the traditional nuclear family, isolated unit sort of way, and to be a queer Asian American, in that context, in what was a conservative family. It felt like I had no access to this thing that we called love. A couple decades later, reflecting back, I am tremendously fortunate to have had the really powerful world building love of wonderful friends or kin, really. And now, I think of some of the most loving and powerful relationships in my life as ones that are not defined by, you know, bloodlines, or necessarily romantic ties, but just people who’ve come together with tremendous care for one another. I don’t know if that’s the last five years specifically. But that’s definitely been a gradual shift in my adulthood. I grew up in a sort of stereotypically Asian American household in that we never said the words “I love you.” And I really adore that I have friend groups that say that all of the time. It means a lot to me that we are that expressive in our care and are active in it for one another.

Yuan Wang 47:19

Jo echoes what so many others have shared so far. Sometimes the models of love that we inherit, they just don’t match up with the love that we want to practice. And in our pursuit of that new kind of love, we try so many things.

Shreya Basu 47:36

Hell yeah, we do. We redefine ways of being together outside of what society expects.

Yuan Wang 47:44

Yes, we prioritize relationships that are based on care, and on our own agency.

Shreya Basu 47:50

And we embrace ourselves and each other in all our messiness.

Yuan Wang 48:00

But what is love without conflicts? The sustainability of a relationship is so often determined by how we navigate conflict with each other. Conflict can be messy, and for so many people, definitely including me, it brings up a lot of hard emotions,

Shreya Basu 48:19

Same, more often than not, the examples of conflict we see in our families, friends, and in mainstream media, don’t equip us with the tools to have generative communication with each other. This leads us to believe that conflict is a point of fracture in our relationships, rather than an opportunity to strengthen it. Hey Yuan, guess who we’re talking to next?

Yuan Wang 48:44

Who?

Shreya Basu 48:45

You! [laughter] Yuan will be sharing her reflections on how conflict shapes her understanding of building loving relationships next.

Yuan Wang 48:58

There’s so many ways, but one really clear thing that I felt is, I remember that when I interviewed like three years ago, to be a summer organizer, the people who talked to me, I think it was you and a friend of ours. [You] asked, like, “How do you deal with conflict in your life? Like if conflict shows up between everybody? How do you deal with it?” And I was super caught off guard. I remember sitting down like feeling real nervous. I was like, laughing but I felt like really uncomfortable. And I laughed because I just, I think I really avoid it. And as I stopped there, I was like, “When’s the last time I had a meaningful conflict?” And I couldn’t think of one and I was like, I just felt so exposed in that interview. For myself to see. [An] unexpected way that my relationship with love and other people has changed through APIENC and through just having queer and trans community has been around comfort. Like, actually, like, comfort is not a sign of an unhealthy relationship or one that has to go, necessarily. But actually that, like, conflict is a sign that like what is happening, and honesty is essential to our relationship. And I feel like that’s something that I did not expect to be learning or practicing through this work. But I even remember, like, when I joined as a staff person, like going to the core meetings and being surprised by the level of honesty and accountability, that members and staff folks asked each other was like, “Hey, like that, that didn’t get done. Like, what happened?” You know, holding that question with compassion, and also celebrating when things when folks like did practice accountability and like really open and vulnerable ways. Yeah, I have just noticed the ways that over the past year, like having relationships with queer and trans API folks that feel solid to me. I’ve also had moments where, like, I’ve been able to say, “Hey, you know, that thing you did kind of hurt me or just didn’t feel great? Like, can I share with you a bit more about that.” And I’ve been able to offer that to other people, and like apologize proactively, even when things aren’t like the end of the world conflict. So I feel like that has been a really big change for me, around love, just practicing. Not like avoiding discomfort for the relationship, but actually seeing the honesty as something nonnegotiable thing. That yeah, like I’m trying to practice and I know, I see people around me doing that, too. I think that’s been a big learning for me.

Shreya Basu 51:51

All of these are such important learnings, Yuan. Conflict is challenging, and it should be celebrated more, not only as conflict necessary and inevitable, it can be used to deepen our relationships with each other. Our relationships are not weak because of the presence of conflict. In fact, it’s through conflict that we get to show up as our full selves and create a space of honesty. This allows us to move through those feelings of discomfort together and hold each other as sacred.

Yuan Wang 52:22

Yes, so true. Shreya. And thank you. For our very last conversation in this episode, we spoke with Vanessa Coe, who gives us an insight on how their perspective of relationships has changed over the years. Vanessa Coe, they them, is an organizer and baller moving for growth, wholeness, joy, ease and connection with self, others and the land and water.

Vanessa Coe 52:53

I think my relationships with people now, they sort of have a confidence around trusting when something feels wrong, and be able to go to the you know, first like examining and sitting with it, right sitting with my own discomfort and what’s coming up. But also going back to the person and saying like, “Hey, this isn’t sitting well with me. I trust the relationship we have. And I kind of want to talk this through a little bit, you know, or, like, knowing that relationships are not sort of flat.” I think like also seeing people I knew all the time. You know, like with my best friends who I feel like we just know each other through and through. And, like, there’s so much sort of connection beyond what we even say to each other, but also challenging myself to see them. And like be open to them changing and being different. And welcoming that and not assuming that they responded one way to one thing at some point, that they’ll respond that same way. And I think it gives me and the people that I’m in relationship with, like a lot of freedom to be together. Yeah, like trusting the gift that I am and trusting the gift that they are and yeah, and like moving toward those places where there’s like joy that like helped me to feel my own dignity. That it’s not just about like being known, or being seen, but like, practicing “seeing” and, like, if I don’t show up authentically in my relationship with someone, then I don’t actually give them the opportunity to see me. And like if I don’t actually name hurt or confusion or difficult moments, then we don’t have a relationship, like the one that I want. And if I genuinely want the world to be in deep connection, you know, interdependence and all of that then like, I have to open myself up to that, you know, even if it’s messy and hard, which is probably the theme of this conversation is like, “Oh, that shit is just messy. And look, we’re still here. And we choose each other. Yay progress.” Summary of our call. So, so yeah, thanks. I appreciate the question. I appreciate where it’s taking me.

Yuan Wang 55:26

Throughout this episode, we explored the spectrum of relationships, Trans and Queer API people live into every day. While it differs from person to person, one thing is constant. Trans and Queer API love is abundant. It is irresistible. And it is as expansive as our beings.

Shreya Basu 55:49

As we close, we want to leave you with some questions to think about. How do you situate yourself within the stories people have shared? What does love mean to you? What kind of love and what kind of relationships feel authentic to you? As you think about love and all of its forms, go express that love to someone close to you today. I’ll start. Thank you Yuan for being the most tender hearted beeb and for sharing so many goofy moments with me.

Yuan Wang 56:20

Shreya, thank you for being you and my friend for years now. You bring so much warmth and care to all you do. And it’s a joy and an honor to narrate this podcast with you. Thank you for listening to the Dragon Fruit Podcast and special thanks to the storytellers who share their stories and histories. This episode is made possible by our writers and editors Zaha Cheema, Rai Dang, Ralph Leano Atanacio, Isabella Ruston, Dorothy Tang, Ankoor Patel, MLin, Shilpa Rao, Kyla Cheung, and Paige Chung. Special things to APIENC staff members Sammie Ablaza Wills, Yuan Wang, Jasmin Hoo and Storycorps. Our opening theme music was produced by saxreligious.

Shreya Basu 57:07

You can also find our podcast episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube and www.apienc.org. Thanks for listening to this episode on love and relationships. And stay tuned for our next episode on healing and accountability.

Yuan Wang 57:25

Okay, bye.

Miko Lee 57:30

Please check out our website at kpfa.org to find out more about how you can take action. We thank all of you listeners out there, keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and keep sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is produced by your host Miko Lee, along with Jalena Keane-Lee and Preeti Mangala Shekar. Tonight’s show is produced primarily by APIENC’s Dragon Fruit Podcast. Many thanks to the staff at KPFA for their support, everyone, have a great night.